AW! Epistles
From a Jewish Theologian
Abstract
Sunday, 02 June 2002
I did not find that you mentioned of the most decisive point of Judaism!
The Living God revealed something to the Jews, which you didn’t pick up. At least, I didn’t find it. You see the Living God of the Jews is without any object relation. He is not invisible, but without any relation to anything we can perceive or conceive.
Now, all the ancients of the time, except for the enlightened Jews, worshipped all kinds of objects, as you well know. But, this is absolutely natural for human beings. Yes, idolatry, in terms of seeking contact with objects for the need of worship is quite human.
What is not natural for human beings is that the Jews and their leaders worshipped such a GOD without any object relation in terms of images or idols. Judaism is super strict about this point. That is why we Jews can’t really accept Jesus or this new convenant thing. It seems that Jesus might have been a very great man, but his followers later turned him into God in the flesh, and whatever else. This was a compromise between idolatry and the need of worshippers to be in some kind of touch with objects. Christianity did the more human thing than Judaism in terms of giving objects to the worshippers. Islam is more like Judaism, but I won’t talk about these people. Anyway, Christianity is older.
Because of this non-object relationship of the founding principle of Judaism, I believe in God and I believe that only God could have, through revelations to the Jews, made the point that this was the case. No normal human being would have dared to suggest to a nation and its leaders to worship a GOD, not just one GOD, but the one God without any normal sense of touch or imagery.
One of the great spinoffs of this non-object relationship matter is that it becomes the key to shaking off dictators in that no object including some human jerk can be be placed above anyone else as some God to be worshipped or as some owner of other human beings. My ancestors as a nation sent a powerful bedrock principle for humane and democratic civilizations. Too bad the holy rolling oppressed masses of Muslims don’t use this concept as they subjugate themselves to the most brutal dictators and despots.
Even Sigmund Freud screwed up here. His book “Moses and Monothesism” is a joke. He says that he proves scientifically that the Living God of the Jews can’t exist. He thought himself to be the archeologist of the mind. If one sees pink elephants and given no pathological haywiring in the brain, then he should be able to dig through the person’s experiences and find an object that causes those pink elephants. Well, he couldn’t find that object in terms of how the Jews could worship an “invisible” God, i.e., one without any object relation. That was his scientific proof. But, any amateur archeologist knows that what you don’t find in the dig where you can reasonably expect to find an object can be as revealing as what you do find. The worship of this “invisible” God of the Jews had no object-relationship, and was counter to any normal human needs. Freud should have realized that a whole nation worshiping such a God must have had some insights into that God, and those insights must have been given by that God. And, that idiot father of psychoanalysis had the gaul to casually conclude his book with the statement that it would be interesting to know just why the Jews worshipped such an invisible God. That was supposed to be the point of the book. Jesus!
I don’t think that this God is myth. And, I do believe that He has some plans for the Jews in the coming future. The only thing that we as Jews can do now is to keep building the State of Israel and get those diaspora Jews here. We, as Jews, are not members of some portable religion, but a sovereign people. We have no further need to stay in other countries. We have our own God given country, even though we have to bust our asses to maintain it. The honour is ours. Our highest mission as a soveriegn people is to sanctify the Living God in the midst of the nations. Maybe we will do a better job this time in the near future than we did in the past.
Thanks for your thoughts. I suspect you have not read enough of the pages on offer, from what you say. The Jews were not the first people to worship an abstract god. The Persians were, and it is from the Persians that Judaism came, as the scriptures say. Ezra brought them. The ’new covenant’ was a requirement of Jeremiah long before Jesus, and the Jewish sect of Essenes were, it seems, the Jews who took it seriously, not the Rabbis. The Essenes transmogified into Christianity when the Roman and Greek gentiles got hold of it. Jews were not always super strict about not having images. The scriptures again say that Solomon’s temple was full of them.
Freud was himself a Jew, and Jews in the past, and still today are as inclined as anyone to follow messiahs or tin pot dictators, or elected ones as the case might be. Believing an abstract god is no refuge from idiotic fancies whether they are of a master race or a chosen people. It seems to me that to believe a god who has no relations with anything is a greater and more successful scam than someone putting their faith in a rabbit’s foot. The ministers ot that god, prophets or whatever you call them, can claim anything they like and no one is any the wiser. You believe or you reject. I reject. This god who has no relations with anything, somehow manages to whisper in people’s ears to tell them His will, and others, like yourself believe it. That is why I call Him the god of used car dealers.
You might not like Muslims but you have the same god, and as the Christians too, and it was the god that the Persians gave you. Even if Jews are His chosen, He is supposed to be the God of all. You say this: ’any amateur archeologist knows that what you don’t find in the dig where you can reasonably expect to find an object can be as revealing as what you do find.’ It is this lack of evidence for the Jewish scriptures before Omri that should make sensible people consider it all as mythical. Myths ought to be good enough for a religion, but sadly, the Israelis are trying to justify kicking the natives by pretending that their myths are history. Even as history, the claim seems absurd to me, since on the same basis the UK could lay claim to the US, the French can lay claim to the UK, the Italians can lay claim to France and so on.
Since the Diaspora, Jews have been cruelly treated by others mainly on the basis of Christianity saying Jews rejected and killed God. That ought to make you think. Despite it all, the strength of the Jewish culture kept Jews together and made them excellent citizens of many countries, people in these more liberal times considered assets by almost everyone. What your elected dictator choses to do to the untermenschen whom Israelis have designated Palestinians will raise ugly prejudices again in the rest of the world. Synagogues are beginning to be defiled, according to the UK national press.
From where we sit back here, it looks as though that is Sharon’s aim, and it sounds as if you agree. If so, it is Satanic.
My original comments were academic. But, your response also gave a preface to your real agenda.
You wrote but since you did not cite the sentences you were criticising in line, some of it was difficult to understand without dropping backwards and forwards to my reply. So, if I have, missed some nuances, apologies. I am sure you will point it out!
Your response also gave a preface to your real agenda.
Tell me what it is. It would be interesting to know whether you have the right one.
I don’t care if Fred Flintstone, and his community, were the first ones to worship an abstract god. The Jews are the recognized ancient sovereign nation who sanctified the Living God in the sight of the other nations.
Further on you add:
No nation would have sanctified a God without object or image relation unless that God revealed in some ways such a reality. Otherwise, my ancient ancesters would have found some objects and images for their worship.
You seem to be suggesting first that what matters is not when God revealed himself but when people recognized that he did. In the second you admit that neverthless God revealed himself to the Persians because they too did not worship images of their High God. He must have had a purpose in that, surely?
You didn’t understand what I said about images and objects. Judaism is full of images and objects, for decoration or ritual use, but none represent the Living God. King Solomon’s Temple certainly had no images or objects representing the Living God.
In the biblical myth this might have been true. Only the myth exists, not any remains of the temple or any contemporary works of admiration. In fact the temple apparently contained images similar to that of the Persian symbol of God or his fravashi—a pair of winged solar discs with an image of a man rising from each facing each other. (2 Chronicles 3:10-13). See:
http://www.askwhy.co.uk/judaism/0240JGoddess.html
And, the mainstream Jews, the vast vast vast majority, will never accept Jesus as other than just a man. Even the Orthodox rabbis don’t deny that Jesus once existed, but unfortunately, they communicate that recognition in terms of: “May his bones be ground into dust.". I am not that bitter about Jesus. All I say is that I won’t accept, for myself, any worship of the Living God through objects or images.
The sad thing about Jesus is that he is worshipped by Christians and vilified by Jews, but he was a great Jewish hero—not a god, of course, but a man who gave his life for the same cause that you now espouse with such manic fervour.
Again, no nation would have sanctified a God without object or image relation unless that God revealed in some ways such a reality. Otherwise, my ancient ancesters would have found some objects and images for their worship. King David and his son King Solomon are revered among the Jews because of the example that they set to the Jewish people for leaders devoted to the Living God. They didn’t relate to any objects or images.
There is no external evidence for either, and even many Jewish scholars are now accepting that they were legendary figures with a slight historic base as kings of small local states, but not grand emperors. I think Solomon is more likely to have been the Canaanite god, Shalim, and David (DWD) might have been the Egyptian God Thoth.
You have been brought up obviously as a Christian, and are highly influenced by the teachings of Christianity in regard to Jesus. But, again, the early Christians made an ingenious compromise for the ancient idol worshippers. Worship the Living God, but in the flesh through Jesus. I really don’t follow at all your problem with God. You certainly won’t influence the Jews, given what we know about our traditions.
I was brought up as a Christian because all of us were. We had no choice, but my parents were of different traditions, so I was not indoctrinated at home. That is why I am now able to reject all patriarchal religion as the product of governments for control, and propagated by confidence tricksters for personal gain. Only those of low intelligence or who are gullible can believe any of it. The leaders of these religions do not because the openly ignore anything they do not like in the various scriptures they call holy.
I have no problem with God, only with people who believe there is one. Everyone thinks they are right, and then use God as an excuse for killing other human beings because they are merely ’animals.’ Fortunately, Jews have a great intellectual traditions that paradoxically means that more Jews are secularists than in any other religion. When everyone rejects patriarchy, the world might have chance of surviving.
The Jews have much much much too long of a history and culture to get bent of shape by any claims of myth.
Most of the history is really myth, but it has provided an admirable culture. Going around calling human beings ’animals’ degrades it, though.
Are you really so deeply concerned about anti-semitism? I don’t shed a tear for those Diaspora Jews. Jews are their own worst enemies. Let them immigrate to Israel by the millions. We need them here to settle the Land of Israel. With them and their potential billions of dollars for investment, the “Palestinian” issue wouldn’t exist. The whole game is over settlement of land. These Diaspora Jews are tellling the whole world how a vibrant Jewish Identity can be maintained without settlement in the State of Israel. And, the Diaspora Jews are the majority of the Jews,-not the Israeli Jews. So, this gives people like you a lot of room to rant and rave about the Israeli policies.
Well, I am afraid it is you who are ranting and raving, but it is always the truth that fanatics can never recognize themselves. A lot of people, including many of your own relatives, no doubt, lost their lives to defeat fascism, and now you want to build a Jewish version of it. You are therefore saying that the only thing wrong with Hitler was that he did not favour the Jews instead of murdering them.
For the Israelis, the real problem to address is not peace with these Arab animals, or anti-semites, with their own cesspool agendas, but with getting millions of Diaspora Jews to immigrate here to Israel. Let these Jews sell their synagogues, schools, community centers, and all the other assets which they have to keep a Diaspora Jewish identity, and bring themselves and their wealth here to Israel. Instead of engaging their overactive intellects with your kind of reasoning, they need to get in touch with the long long long established real objectives of Jewish identity.
It was the objective that Judaism was created for by the Persians. Sensible people can hardly believe 2500 years later it is still a valid purpose.
By the way, Jews don’t believe in Satan. But, there are a lot of holy rolling Jews who like to add the magical, mystical, hocus pocus crap into getting their Jewish jollies. When you stated that my views indicate an aim which is Satanic, then I had to laugh from remembering a movie called The Brave And Fearless Vampire Killers. My reply to you is what one of the vampires said to his intended victim as she held up her Crucifix in his face. The vampire, obviously speaking in a Jewish “Yiddisha” accent, slapped his face, moved his head from side to side, and said: “Boy, have you got the wrong vampire!". Diaspora Jews are prime targets for your slogans; Israelis are not.
Are you really a Jew? Did you ever read Job? Satan is a Hebrew word. You seem to be picking and choosing what you like in your holy works. Typical!
Do you mean Qabalists? Or that there are insincere Jews, just in it for the money?
We agree for once. I thought this was a great Joke. The vampire was, I think, Alfie Bass, a well known and much loved Jewish actor. Dead now, I think, but presumably not a vampire.
Jews are not members of portable religious movements. Jews are members of a Sovereign Nation. Jerusalem is the capitol of that Sovereign Jewish Nation, and not some international playground for portable religious movements.
This is what you say, but for most of its history, it has not been Jewish at all.
It all started for us Jews with the Living God, and it all will come back to it again, from the State of Israel.
You believers in the patriarchal god would rather see us all dead than alive. You are all insane.
1. The Arabs are animals, murderers, torturers, and international pirates. I have no illusions about these vermin who do not share the same humanity as do you (I guess) and I. I am very confident of Israel’s democracy and humanity in handling these nations of terrorists. If anything, Israel is too humane. Arafat, for one should have been killed a long time ago. I will say it very clearly. I want Judea, Samaria, and Jerusalem as fully settled Jewish lands. And, it will take much more immigration by the Diaspora Jews to accomplish this. A Jewish “settlement” here and there in Judea and Samaria must become massively settled communities by new immigrants. If the “Palestinians” are not happy, then let them migrate to Jordan and Egypt and elsewhere.
2. Again, I will state to you that the Living God of the Jews has no object or image relation. Again, I will state to you that my long tradition carries this message. Only a substantial revelation by this God to the ancient Hebrews could have caused my ancestors to worhip this God without relating to any objects or images. Again, this runs absolutely counter to human nature, and for me, such a contradiction is my proof of His existence.
3. Are any modern day Persians challenging the World Title for “The Chosen People” over the Jews. If so, then tell me.
4. I am not licensed to practice psychiatry, but you have an enormous personal problem with God. It almost seems that any attacks on “The Chosen People” are really attacks on GOD. Any attacks on Israeli policy by you also seem now to be motivated by attacks on God. You need to find “weaklings” being beaten up by “bullies” to defend, so you gravitate to these “poor little defenseless Arabs” being targeted by the “brute” Israeli military. If you didn’t have the Israelis, so you and others would be forced to find other groups on which to project your whatever the shrinks call it. You, in effect, want to role play as God to correct for some deficiency that you perceive in God. Yes, you really believe in God, as do all proclaimed atheists and agnostics. But, you have experienced something so traumatic in your life that you wonder how such a merciful, just, etc. God could have allowed such a thing to happen to you. You and everyone else want to punish God by showing HIM that you can make HIM just a myth to everyone else. Yes, you will imprison God in pain, and loneliness, and if he responds to you, AH, then, you will find the facts to convince everyone that he is real and God will be free, and relieved from his pain that manking will allow Him to exist. You are certainly not alone. But, again, I get the impression of something like this going on without any clinical training to make a correct diagnosis. And, you are my first case! With all the other similar experiences with people, I just responded in some way so the other didn’t think that I’m autistic or something. Personally, I don’t try to punish God by making Him into a myth. I just threaten to eat a ham sandwich on Yom Kippur. Does it work? I’ll never tell.
5. I am not one to get too deep in details when I feel that I’m getting myself into a swamp. So, I stick to the objectives. For me it’s clear. Get the Jews out of the Diaspora, as members of portable religious movements, and back onto their sovereign land, The State of Israel, as the sovereign Jewish People. Then, we head for the next stage, always on the path to the eventual you know what with you know WHOM. I want the Diaspora image of the Jews past history as soon as possible. Their synagogues are nothing to me but monuments to the destruction caused by an exile 2000 years ago, which has now ended by the rebirth of the State of Israel. Do you have any suggestions, Mike, on how to get these Jews here en masse?
6. All your arguements lead to me believe that you are a Christian with a Jewish mind. If there is any swamp that I will not step into it is an overactive Jewish intellect. Deal with objectives. Set a real agenda. What do you want to really accomplish? If I know this, then we will communicate much better in any future discussions.
You should consider psychiatry instead of running it down. You shout loud and long, but you listen to nothing. You confuse the Evil Spirit with the Good one. Like everyone besotted with this God, Jew, Christian or Moslem, you are tenuously hanging on to sanity or you are already insane. Your words need no refutation by me. They refute themselves.
I see that we are making progress. Here is one of your statements:
The sad thing about Jesus is that he is worshipped by Christians and vilified by Jews, but he was a great Jewish hero—not a god, of course, but a man who gave his life for the same cause that you now espouse with such manic fervour.
Now, if you respect Jesus, as a great Jewish hero, then you must accept that he worshipped the Living God of the Jews. I assume that he must be good and sane, in your analysis. Why does Jesus survive your criticisms?
By the way, how do we know that God is white and not black? We know because God said to Moses, at the burning bush, “I am that I am”, and not “Ah iz that Ah iz!”
