AW! Epistles
From Shocker
Abstract
Sunday, 18 April 2004
I am confused on your opinion on the matter of Jesus’s miracles. Do you believe they were real and were backed up in the new testament, if not I would like to discuss them with you and see if I can’t shed some light on them. Please e-mail me back so we can discuss them.
I have a long page on miracles which is pretty clear that I do not believe in miracles at all, so I cannot believe in one particular bunch of them, whoever they are by. I also thought the pages on JC were clear that the miracles he was supposed to have done, notably the healing miracles were then what many liberal Christians regard them as now—metaphors for hidden actions. Healing people of particular illnesses was a metaphor for converting them to belief in the Jewish revolution that Jesus was the leader of. They were not physical cures but conversions from apathy and hopelessness into the idea that the Roman occupiers could be defeated. The non-healing miracles were obviously not the same, and my guess is that they were misreported parables.
I know the pages are many and long but read them carefully, and come back to me on whatever you find troublesome. I think the hypothesis proposed is pretty coherent but naturally might not be perfect in every detail, but I am glad to discuss it.
I find it hard to believe that his miracles can be mistaken for parables when hundreds of eye witnesses all professed that Jesus did in fact heal people. All throughout the bible, prophecies were fulfilled from the old to the new testament. Now, sorry to point out the obvious, but if a man says something is going to happen seven hundred years from that time and it does, I honestly do not have any choice but to believe that miracle to be true. There are many prophecies fulfilled, not just one or two.
Who are these hundreds of eyewitnesses that you speak of? How do you know that the supposed biblical prophecies were fulfilled as prophecies and not as history or fiction. I repeatedly say on my pages that Christians come in two qualities. The sheep and the shepherds—the gullible and those who gull them. Which of them are you?
The feeding of the five thousand contained so many details that it could not have been a knock off of something else. In any other religion that has a similar story, that was the knock off. No other similar story has the details.
Well, if it were a knock off of something else, you can be certain that the later version would have the details added. But who says it was a knock off? I argue that it was what Christians have done ever since, and plainly some Jews were doing before. It was a type of mass in which people ate a morsel of bread to get religiously fed!
Lastly, the resurrection of Jesus Christ was viewed by more than 500 witnesses. Now if that isn’t proof I don’t know what is. If that is true then all of the other miracles had to be true and real. It wouldn’t make sense for people to slap a bunch of unproven metaphors in with a proven ressurection.
Again, I ask are you sheep or shepherd? Who says the risen Christ was seen by 500 people? The answer is the New Testament authors. Why does it not occur to you that all such statement are proof of nothing. They are written simply to encourage credulous people to believe, and they believe because they are first told that these words are the words of God—with nothing to prove it is so. Nothing independent of the biblical authors confirms these claims. Why did God do such a poor job in persuading people he wanted to save them? This is the God that created the world. To imagine He has to resort to incredible miracles is to imagine that God is not only not almighty but He is a fool. Only fools could believe it. Think about it.
I say this, not only as my last thought on the subject, but to you as a person as well.
If it is your last thought on the subject you must have a narrow grasp of it to have used it all up already.
I honestly am asking what you do believe in? If christianity is a “fake” religion only to create a dreamworld, then why have so many lives been changed.
I would ask you why so many people’s lives were lost by Christians roasting them while they were tied to a log and could not escape. If any lives have been changed, I would like to see a balance sheet of them. Plenty of Christians do not seem to find any assistance in their religion, or if they do, it is not enough to make them happy people.
Why were there so many people willing to die for Jesus? Columbine—people wouldn’t just die for something they didn’t believe in.
I just cannot believe that you are saying this when Moslems who evidently have a much stronger belief these days than Christians are happy to blow themselves to pieces to get some sort of justice in a world they see as oppressing them. That sounds to me just like the original Christian cracked pots, but there are not many of them left today, thankfully. Most of them, even though they are Christians, are not rushing to join God in heaven, unlike the Moslems. Who is right? You justify people killing themselves and others for crazy beliefs that no one can prove are true, whether Moslem or Christian.
I know people that have come from one side of the spectrum to christianity. Drug abusers, sex offenders, the abused, you name it, if they come and ask for Jesus he will come.
And a lot more never change because he does not come. And a lot more are supposedly devout Christians who are running the rackets, like the Mafia. Remember, if you can, that Christianity is a very imperfect cure for these illnesses. The record of Lourdes is not good at all in curing people.
About the 500 witnesses—why were there no challenges ever recorded to Christ at that time.
How do you know there were not? I will tell you. Because no one tells you any different. Would it appear in the bible, if there were? The fact is that those people who criticized Christianity when it was relatively new, have had their works destroyed, so no one knows them in detail. We know they existed though, because some Christians argued back! Ever hear of Celsus?
Certainly there would have been many people saying the resurrection never happened if it didn’t! There were no records of anyone protesting the ressurection at all besides the pharisees and other such Romans. Why is that?
Because the Christians have destroyed all the opposing views, my friend. Moreover, the Jews, of whom Jesus counted himself one, never believed he was the son of God, and indeed, Christians say, God Himself. That is blasphemy as you should know because God told everybody never to believe it. Read your bible. Read my website.
Again, he doesn’t want to have to persuade people to come to him. Wouldn’t that be pointless!? What kind of free will would it be if Jesus just came to everyone saying he was real? People choose their fate, not God.
If this is true then why would God have gone through the charade that you people believe in. You tell us that God wants to save us, in one sentence, and then tell us He could not care less in the next, and it is up to us. Since He allowed sin to enter the world, according to you, so it is up to Him to cure it. People are just the victims in your mythology. God is a liar and a cheat, if His most faithful followers are to be believed. We have free will as long as we do what He says. That is not free will, especially when the punishment is to be roasted for evermore. The God who is supposed to do the roasting is Satan. Are you sure you are worshipping the right one.
Lastly, I would rather believe in something that makes my life better than not believe in it and be wrong!
Muggers of old women say exactly the same thing. I would rather believe in truth rather than a lot of unprovable lies, that just have to be believed as if God was a used care dealer. No God could be as stupid as Christians. He created you with brains that you refuse to use. That must annoy Him. Too bad for you if it does.
I can see that you are very knowledgable in the art of taking sentences out of context.
What do you mean. You are like all Christians expert in making unverified assertions.
Your perception on Christianity is somewhat vague and very bias. Have you ever thought of some “christians” doing things they shouldn’t? The bible states there will be many false prophets and we have to be able to be knowledgable enough in our faith and trust in the Lord to pick out these people.
If the false prophets are so easily picked out, they offer no danger at all. Plainly false prophets are dangerous precisely because no one can tell whether they are bogus or not. the bible tells you how to tell, but you can only do it after the prophecy fails. That shows that the prophet was false. Jesus prophesied that the kingdom would come while those listening to him were still alive. It is now 2000 years later. That was a false prophecy and God told you, but you will not listen, that such false prophecies are delivered by false prophets. Jesus is not merely a prophet to you, he is God too, yet God told you not to believe anyone was God. He alone was the saviour, and no man. Why would God completely reverse what He said in the Old Testament? You are worshipping the wrong God!
I never once said God could care less about mankind did I? Or did you want to think that I did?
You clearly said He would not bother persuading people or come to anyone believing he was real. That sounds just like him not caring about those people.
Yes he allowed sin into the world—whats your point? He did this so the real christians could be separated from the fake ones. Don’t you have to have something bad to determine the good? I merely stated that God doesn’t want to have to make us love him. That would not be love, that would just make us robots. He loves us enough to give us free will so we can choose what we believe. Again we choose our own fate!
I have said elesewhere that Christians treat God like an idiot. They reflect themselves on to their own God. God, you tell me is almighty but cannot arrange for a world to be free of sin. God is therefore not almighty, and perhaps cannot therefore get rid of sin at all. I also said before, what sort of free will is it that you cannot chose to do what God does not like because He arranges for you to be cooked forever.
I want you to do be a favor. If you already haven’t, I would love for you to read the case for christ. It is about a man who desperately searched for means of disproving christianity and ended up becoming a christian himself because he couldn’t. Also why are you so quit to attack christianity? Has a christian done something to you personally? I do not believe in atheism yet I do not insult the minds of people that do.
You cannot because atheism is a sensible and logical position to hold, whereas Christianity demands that you believe unprovable things on the say so of other people and for no other reason. You do not name this book of yours but I have read other such books and they are phony. Who Moved the Stone is about as dishonest a book as it is possible to write.
Name people that have actually been able to prove the bible wrong!
Read my pages! Why have you got to be told everything individually like an infant being fed at the breast. Read.
Again what hope is there to believe that there is no purpose to this life? Why should we even go on living if there is nothing to live for? Life would be pretty depressing if there wasn’t any light at the end of the tunnel!
What then is the purpose of the everlasting life that you get as a reward for enduring this one? You people just do not think at all. Everlasting life would be unendurable. You would be insane in a few thousand years at the most, and you still have eternity to go. The only truly peaceful state is death. Then you cannot think or know anything, and you are in the deepest repose forever. That is the reward of life.
Also, christianity is nothing like muggers of old women. That would be relativism while christianity is a constant truth.
That is another unjustified assertion. Start thinking. Use the brain your God gave you.
No matter what anyone says or does that doesn’t change the fact that there is a set of moral rules that we must abide by.
You believe one set of moral rules that suited ancient despots. I believe another set that suit the modern world. That is relativism, and it is necessary. It is part of progress and evolution. If we live by fixed rules then we never get any better.
Lastly, about the lack of opposition against the ressurection; What kind of freedom did Christians have in those days? Don’t you think if someone were to say something against christianity his word would have been taken over a christians??? Christianity could not have covered it up because Rome wouldn’t have let it happen? Again a pointless argument. Read a case for christ then come back to me with another opinion!
There were no Christians at the time of the resurrection. Most people in the whole world did not believe it even then because most people never knew about it, the Holy Ghost being as useless in letting people know as he ever was, and it is an unbelievable story anyway. Only gullible people believe it, and only gullible people believe that the powerful devil could not do the same trick in their mythology. Read your bible. The devil can appear as an angel of light. How do you know he did not?
Unverified assertions? You sit there and say Jesus never existed. You say the bible is false, yet you have no proof of it. You rely on others for your information just as we do, what makes you so sure about it?
Listen! I enjoy having email discussions with Christians like yourself, but many of you, including yourself, do not have the courtesy to read properly what I say before you fire off your “responses”. I do not myself say that Jesus never existed. I say the Christian Jesus, later surnamed Christ, never existed. The bible tells us that a Jewish rebel called by his followers Jesus did exist and died a rebel’s death.
You say I have no proof the bible is false showing that you cannot understand your own beliefs. You are making the fancy claims not me, so you should be giving the proofs. You have no proof the bible is correct but you go about telling eveyone it is. That is a lie! Moreover, there is plenty of evidence that the bible is incoherent. It should not give anyone confidence it is true. How can incoherent things be true, or conflicting stories? Some of these “mistakes”, if that is what they are, I can read for myself. You are the ones who believe some character in a frock who explains them away. So read what I really say, and criticize me on that, not on what you think I ought to say.
Yes Jesus said that he would come when people that listened to him were still alive. There are millions of christians all over the world that listen to him! You take the bible so literally that you can’t look beyond your own hatred for it. Why don’t you look at the bible without a bias opinion? Read some of it and ask yourself, is this really believable? Don’t throw that bogus “I don’t want to believe in Jesus” and use the brain that you say again “God gave to you” .
You want to start using that brain, and you want to start reading your bible critically. From your excuse here, you know full well that Christ promised the kingdom of God then, not more than 2000 years later. You say I am reading it too literally. Only when he was alive could his own audience hear him, but you pretend he was being metaphorical and meant anyone “listening” to his message even twenty centuries later. I cannot see that the passages in question will bear your metaphorical interpretation, but besides that, you had better think carefully how you know that any passage is metaphorical and not historical. You do not make these distinctions unless you have to because someone is criticizing. You Christians pretend it is all historical and literal until you have to use the opposite as an excuse. If parts of the gospels are metaphorical, I want to know why all of them cannot be the same, and if only parts of it are, how you can tell them from the other bits. How do you know the story is not just an allegory of the battle of good and evil? You do not know, but will continue to believe absurdity instead.
No Jesus is not a separate God to us. Where do you get your information? From other atheists? Listen to the minds of christians. C S Lewis, J R R Tolkien, Lee Strobell, weren’t and aren’t they reliable people? The holy trinity is one. Jesus, the holy ghost, and God are the same beings. Jesus was just the man made version of God in heaven. The holy ghost is the version of God that was sent to us to allow us to communicate to him. Many poeple like yourself take deep sayings and run with it without understanding the true meaning of it.
I have just told you to read your bible, and not to take the God, or Gods, you believe in to be fools, if you want to take them seriously. God in Judaism was not and could not be a man, and He warned people not to listen to men who pretended to be God. But despite it, you say, He pops up as a man to give His main message of salvation. If God exists, what makes you think He is a dolt? Perhaps you are the dolt.
Why should I listen to Christians, all of whom believe the same unbelievable nonsense? You tell me what the Holy Trinity is, but how do you know it even exists. Some man in a frock told you or told your parents to tell you. Use your own brain, if you can. These stupid inventions, you call deep sayings, but any science fiction writer can think of deeper ones at any time. There is nothing deep about these things. They are infantile.
Again you say God cannot arrange for a world to be rid of sin. Where did that come from? Who has directly said this to you? Again assumptions will get you nowhere.
Have you got a brain at all? What is the assumption here? The world plainly is not free of wickedness, yet you tell us it could be, and heaven is. If God can make the world free of wickedness, then He cannot be perfectly good not to do it. If He cannot make it free of wickedness, then He is not almighty.
Why does anyone have to say it to me for me to see it is true. I am not a Christian, and can work out certain things for myself without having to be told them. You will say to me that God has a purpose in having a sinful world, in which case I have to conclude still that He is not almighty or good, for no good or almighty God would use evil and suffering for a purpose that He, being almighty, could do some other way.
In the matter of us reflecting ourselves on him, yes we were made in his image, but that is all. God gave us the choice to let sin into the world. He wanted us to have free will to do what we pleased. Again what do you think free will is? He gave us the choice to follow him or endure eternal punishment. It was our choice. WE BROUGHT SIN INTO THE WORLD. PEOPLE LIKE YOU AND ME. Now don’t take that comment and transform it. I mean just what i said, adam and eve were just like you and I. We would have done the same thing if we were in that same situation.
I know you are a Christian but I am not going to be told how to think by you, someone who thinks through citing as many falsehoods as possible. God gave us a choice of eternal bliss or eternal cooking. Why do you believe that is the act of a good God? Nothing that is good could make someone endure eternal torture. You have the wrong God. You support the one who lives in the hot place not the other one.
I have also said on the pages, that since God is almighty, He could have given us a restricted choice, while still giving us a choice and would not have needed to make us so potentially wicked. God has not allowed us to be able to walk on water, and you think it a great miracle that He allowed one man to do it. He has therefore restricted us in the choices of physical things we can do. He could have given us the choice of being wicked but stopped us from murder and torture in a similar way. Animals often fight within a species—for mates and territory, for example—but few of them actually kill another. He did not limit us from these things, and even arranged for His son to be tortured as proof that we can do it. Since then Christians always have done, whenever they were able. As for Adam and Eve, you must believe in the Tooth Fairy, Mother Goose and Santa Claus, if you believe this. We know absolutely that there never was any Adam and Eve because we evolved from non-human animals similar to us.
Also The Case For Christ is the title of the book, I apologize for not being clear about that. This book is much clearer than any other book I have read besides the bible. It was written by Lee Stroble. It has so many tests that prove the bible right, that any atheist could not sit there and say something was not going on.
I challenge you on that. Christianity is dishonest. Any atheist has merely to uncover the lies and Christianity falls. It does not matter how many lies you devise, they remain lies. You say there are many tests that prove Christianity, so the majority of people in the world must be dolts, but not Christians. I suggest there are no such tests. It is another lie! And it is the Christians who are dolts to believe what is incredible.
Your mind is so set that books like these aren’t true that you won’t even give them the benefit of the doubt. I can already tell that even before you read one of these books you are already looking for proof to discredit it. I’m sorry that you hate these ideas so much.
You just do not get it. I hate lies! Why don’t you? It is because Christianity depends on them. If these books are so compelling, all you have to do is send me a copy, and when I have read it, I must be convinced, because these tests prove the bible to be true. You are right, I do not believe there are any such tests, and that they will convince me. You cannot seem to understand that I have read a lot about these childish ideas and have written a lot myself about them. You and many others tell me you do not like what I write, but no one has so far ever given me a proof that I am wrong.
Many of the theories that atheists have to disprove God are so out in left field that there is no way someone could believe them unless they are just looking for a way to disprove something.
Your ideas are upside down. It is again the result of the destructive and disgusting upbringing that you people give your children. I have no need to disprove God, any more than I have any need to disprove Santa Claus or Mother Goose. If you insist that Santa lives, then you must prove it to me. Clever Christians have tried, and have failed. I agree that the failed proofs of God still get repeated in your dishonest books, without their refutations, but it simply proves you Christians are liars. The proof there is no God is simply that the hypothesis of God is not needed, as Laplace said. The Christian schoolmen formulated the rule called Occam’s Razor. Entities that are not needed should not be invented. The Christian God explains nothing that nature does not explain. It cannot explain anything because it creates a bigger mystery. How to explain God!
The purpose of the everlasting life is to spend it in a place that has no pain or anguish. That nothing bad happens, it is a place of perfection. Everything that is good is there. If death is the only reward of life, what purpose would that serve. There’s no telling how much time you have on this earth. By your theory we could die at age five and never enjoy anything. What kind of belief is that? After this life its over?? What stops the world from just letting go of everything and doing whatever they want? If there was nothing to look forward to, why do we even bother to run governents or any sort of societies?? The only thing that holds these necessities of life is the religion that we hold closely to us.
You are not thinking again. You are arguing in circles without coming up with an adequate answer. If you ask what the purpose of this life is, I ask you what is the purpose of an utterly boring eternal life where nothing ever happens because it is in a perfect place. I repeat that any such life would be a punishment not a reward. And I say again, if this perfect place exists, and you and God think it is so desirable, then why didn’t God make the world perfect? It was to give us a choice you say, but you have no choice about coming into the wicked world in the first place, and you have no choice about getting out of the eternal place of boredom once you get in and realize what it is like. All Christian arguments are half reasoned special pleadings, that simply ignore too much. What is the purpose of life, in your view? I bet you your answer will be circular.
What then of those who die young and so on. Well what? If they have died at childbirth what purpose has it served the dead child? What sort of life will the dead child have in the perfect place? Will it be bawling for its ma for eternity? Is the child’s purpose in its short life just to punish its mother? She, as a sinner will be resting on the hot irons in the other place. Or will the child be saying “goo goo goo,” for eternity? What of the child before it emerged into humanity? Did it still have a purpose? Do animals have a purpose in their lives?
What have governments on earth to do with the afterlife. Are we being trained as civil servants in heaven? Society exists because it is convenient for us to live under the law. It permits a division of labour so that farmers do not have to be soldiers, and shopkeepers do not have to be policemen. Use your head, by throwing away your ancient and silly writings.
Unjustified assertion? Everything you argue for is an unjustified assertion. You have to have other beliefs to keep yours alive. Your belief is a parasite of others. Without christianity you wouldn’t have a belief! What kind of belief system is that? Please come back with something more logical than “Christianity is stupid and so are the christians that believe in it”.
You persist in being back to front. You have to prove YOUR belief in Christianity. I have given a large number of pages explaining why I do not believe in it, and no one should. Take a look at them. They are not unjustified assertions. They are justified assertions, though I realize that Christians cannot understand the difference.
